Guantanamo should close, says Attorney General

[FirefoxWiz]

So I

did. And I meant it. The person that killed their victim should be killed the exact same way. That way the other muderers and such will know the

penalty.

FW

[Papa Spot]

So I did. And I meant it. The person that killed their victim should be killed the exact same way. That way the other muderers and

such will know the penalty.

FW

Then you feel that Jesus WOULD condone cruelty? What I'm trying to learn is how you reconcile

your position on this with your religion. Nothing exists in a vacuum. If one of your beliefs is opposed to ANOTHER one of your beliefs (and by your I

mean anyone's) then you have to examine them and see which one of them is stronger.

[Dr Small]

But the REAL question is, how do you reconcile that with your religion? Did Jesus teach that cruelty was acceptable, even as

punishment? That seems to me kind of counter to His very NATURE.

How would you know, since you do not believe the Bible to be

true?

However, I'm not willing to stipulate that.So, in order for anything from the Bible to be accepted as a valid point, you must

FIRST PROVE that the Bible contains absolute proof (Or you must prove independently that your point is true. The simple fact that it's from the Bible

doesn't prove anything unless we both stipulate that it the Bible contains only absolute truth). Since you can't DO that, the point is

invalid.

The first problem is that the the social mores that our laws are based on were in existence for thousands of years

before religion existed.

Uh, the laws came from God in the beginning. There was no laws thousands of years before

'religion'.

EDIT

Then you feel that Jesus WOULD condone cruelty? What I'm trying to learn is how you reconcile your

position on this with your religion. Nothing exists in a vacuum. If one of your beliefs is opposed to ANOTHER one of your beliefs (and by your I mean

anyone's) then you have to examine them and see which one of them is stronger.

I don't recall anyone saying that THEY were going to

torture the murders and such.
Let the government handle the toruture. They SHOULD be torutured IF they DID KILL.
That is why some men seek blood

thirsty revenge on others who have killed his wife or kids.

Would you want your wife killed by the hand of a murder, and then have him spend the

rest of his life behind a prison cell, living better than when he was out.
He now gets the pleasures of life....

_ISR_m3rc_

[Papa Spot]

But the REAL question is, how do you reconcile that with your religion? Did Jesus teach that cruelty was

acceptable, even as punishment? That seems to me kind of counter to His very NATURE.

How would you know, since you do not believe the

Bible to be true?

Uhhhhh....I don't remember saying that Jesus never existed. And the fact that I don't believe that the Bible was

written by God doesn't mean that I don't know what the Bible SAYS.

However, I'm not willing to stipulate that.So, in order

for anything from the Bible to be accepted as a valid point, you must FIRST PROVE that the Bible contains absolute proof (Or you must prove

independently that your point is true. The simple fact that it's from the Bible doesn't prove anything unless we both stipulate that it the Bible contains

only absolute truth). Since you can't DO that, the point is invalid.

The first problem is that the the social mores that our

laws are based on were in existence for thousands of years before religion existed.

Uh, the laws came from God in the beginning. There was

no laws thousands of years before 'religion'.

_ISR_m3rc_
[/quote]

Prior to the Mosaic Dispensation, there was no organized

religion. Yet there were STILL laws against murder, stealing, etc. Humans existed for THOUSANDS OF YEARS before the Mosaic Dispensation began.

And such LAWS existed for thousands of years before religion. Then religion came along and codified them. But they were still laws even before they were

codified.

[FirefoxWiz]

Psa

7:15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.
Psa 7:16 His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent

dealing shall come down upon his own pate.

Psa 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

[Papa Spot]

EDIT

Then you feel that Jesus WOULD condone cruelty? What I'm trying to learn is how you reconcile

your position on this with your religion. Nothing exists in a vacuum. If one of your beliefs is opposed to ANOTHER one of your beliefs (and by your I mean

anyone's) then you have to examine them and see which one of them is stronger.

I don't recall anyone saying that THEY were going to

torture the murders and such.
Let the government handle the toruture. They SHOULD be torutured IF they DID KILL.
That is why some men seek blood

thirsty revenge on others who have killed his wife or kids.

If you CONDONE and ACCEPT what the government does, it doesn't

MATTER if you did it directly or not. If you know that a murder is going to happen and you have the power to PREVENT it, yet you do NOTHING, are you

guiltless? I don't think so.

Would you want your wife killed by the hand of a murder, and then have him spend the rest of his life

behind a prison cell, living better than when he was out.
He now gets the pleasures of life....

_ISR_m3rc_

My

debate is not based on emotion; it's debate on reason, as I understand it. But since you've introduced emotion to the debate, I'll address your question.

If my wife were murdered, SHE would not want the state to kill someone on her account (nor would I). So the answer is no; I would not want the state to try

to make two wrongs equal a right.

As far as someone living better in prison than out, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you've never

actually been inside a prison.

[Papa Spot]

Psa 7:15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.
Psa 7:16 His mischief shall return upon his

own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate.

Psa 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked

every day.

Okay, if you insist on using the Bible as evidence, you gotta use the WHOLE THING.

Romans 12:19

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the

Lord.

Ezekiel 25:14 And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to

mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord GOD.

[Dr Small]

Prior to the Mosaic Dispensation, there was no organized religion. Yet there were STILL laws against murder, stealing, etc. Humans

existed for THOUSANDS OF YEARS before the Mosaic Dispensation began. And such LAWS existed for thousands of years before religion. Then religion

came along and codified them. But they were still laws even before they were codified.

Sure, humans existed prior to Moses! The general

rule of thumb for keeping the law was this:
And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
If thou doest well,

shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. Gen 4:6

-7

Religion is man-made, but God has always existed and always will exist. Whether you believe the Bible is true or not is your choice. We all

have to make our own choices in life and I choose to believe it is the only TRUTH on this earth.

As far as someone living better in

prison than out, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you've never actually been inside a prison.

Well, it's better than being

tortured.

Anyway, you said that you were going to explain why you were against any form of governmental torture. Could you do that now?



Debate is pointless, as it never changes the other's position only makes them more determined to be right!

_ISR_m3rc_

[Papa Spot]

Prior to the Mosaic Dispensation, there was no organized religion. Yet there were STILL laws against murder,

stealing, etc. Humans existed for THOUSANDS OF YEARS before the Mosaic Dispensation began. And such LAWS existed for thousands of years before

religion. Then religion came along and codified them. But they were still laws even before they were codified.

Sure, humans existed prior to

Moses! The general rule of thumb for keeping the law was this:
And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?


If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule

over him. Gen 4:6 -7

Religion is man-made, but God has always existed and always will exist. Whether you believe the Bible is true or not is your

choice. We all have to make our own choices in life and I choose to believe it is the only TRUTH on this earth.

That's all fine

and good and I applaud you for it. But the fact that you believe it doesn't automatically make it valid evidence in a debate. If you're gonna use it as

evidence in a debate, you first gotta PROVE that it's true. And you and I both know that it isn't possible to prove it's true any more than it's possible to

prove that it's NOT true.

As far as someone living better in prison than out, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess

that you've never actually been inside a prison.

Well, it's better than being tortured.[/quote]

Uhhh...I believe that what you

SAID was:

[/i]"Would you want your wife killed by the hand of a murder, and then have him spend the rest of his life behind a prison cell,

living better than when he was out."[/i]

Anyway, you said that you were going to explain why you were against any form of

governmental torture. Could you do that now?

Well, if you've been following the thread, you should KNOW many of my reasons for

opposing torture. But, just for YOU, m'fried, I'll sum it up here.

1. Torture is a tool of barbarians. We are SUPPOSED to be a civilized

nation. Civilized nations do NOT use the tools of barbarians.

2. It diminishes our reputation before the world. During the Cold War , we repeatedly

condemned the former Soviet Union for their alleged use of torture. To now employ it OURSELVES makes us hypocrites.

3. It runs counter to the Rule

of Law and to Due Process. If we abandon the Constitution and the principles upon which the nation was founded, where will we go from there?

4. It

sets a bad example for the world. The world USED to look to the United States as an example of what a civilized nation consisted of. They no longer do

this and the fact that we torture prisoners is one of the main reasons that they don't.

5. It destroys our credibility. Who are WE to condemn Saddam

Hussein for using torture if WE ALSO use it?

6. It runs counter to our national morality. There are a few right-wing extremists that actually do

condone torture, but if you look at the polls, the VAST MAJORITY of Americans oppose it.

Debate is pointless, as it never changes the other's

position only makes them more determined to be right!
[/quote]

I suppose that's true if you keep a closed mind. But why do we have

to AGREE? Why is it pointless unless we can win our opponent over to our side? I like to debate because I like to learn how OTHER people think and WHY

they think that way. If you surround yourself only with people who think exactly like you think, you don't learn anything about the world. And you can't

validate your OWN beliefs unless you are exposed to (and explore) the beliefs of OTHERS.

[Papa Spot]

Here's one more thought on torture:

“I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature�

Know who said

that? Adolf Hitler.